Lower thirds:

00:02 Report by Christine Mhundwa

00:26 German MEP Tobias Cremer

Script:

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:19:13
Christine Mhundwa
There are people around the world who cannot understand how a Europe that promotes international humanitarian law, that condemns the violation of international humanitarian law in any other place is allowing what is happening in Gaza.

00:00:19:15 - 00:00:40:15
Tobias Cremer
We've been very, very clear. The attacks from October 7th, where an attack on Israel. Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas is a terrorist organization. But we've also been very clear because Israel is a democracy, because Israel is a country that is run by the rule of law. Israel has to follow the rule of law in its actions in Gaza.

00:00:40:17 - 00:01:00:24
Tobias Cremer
This is why we have been very clear and have said it is under no circumstances okay to block delivery of aid to the civilians. We have put pressure on Israel and we've said that very, very clearly and we've said very, very clearly that this can. This is about freeing the hostages and nothing else. We support Israel in its attempt to free the hostages.

00:01:01:05 - 00:01:05:19
Tobias Cremer
But it is clear for us that this is the limit. No further.

00:01:05:21 - 00:01:09:01
Christine Mhundwa
But Israel is pushing the limits, some would say.

00:01:09:03 - 00:01:28:16
Tobias Cremer
I think there are members of the government of Israel that are pushing for that. But we see very, very clearly that that is not Israel as a whole. There's a large majority of Israeli people who are saying, of course, we support our fight to free the hostages and to defend ourselves against the terrorist organization Hamas. But at the same time, they are saying we don't want an escalation of this conflict.

00:01:28:18 - 00:01:50:19
Tobias Cremer
And I think it is some members of the far right in Netanyahu's government that is trying to divide not just international, but to divide also the Israeli population. And we've just heard yesterday and the day before from Joe Golan, who is one of the leaders of the Israeli opposition, that it is not okay, but under no circumstances is not up to Israeli Israel's own standards to break humanitarian law.

00:01:50:20 - 00:01:56:13
Tobias Cremer
Of course, the population in Gaza needs to be protected and we have been very, very clear about that.

00:01:56:15 - 00:02:20:19
Christine Mhundwa
Yet we see Israel intensifying its military campaign. We're told that the aid that was promised to be let into Gaza has not gone into it, has not reached the people. What should Europe be doing to respond? So far, foreign ministers have agreed to review the EU trade association with Israel. Does this go far enough?

00:02:20:21 - 00:02:40:06
Tobias Cremer
I think this is, in the end the commission that has to decide whether the the agreement still lives up to what it needs to be. And I think that is a process that we will have to do now and we will have to look into that. But in the end, we can what we can do is to be very clear to our allies in Israel.

00:02:40:06 - 00:02:57:06
Tobias Cremer
And I say that as a German social Democrat, as a friend of Israel, that it is also in the Israeli interest to live up to its own standards when it comes to international. And I think that is much more conducive than trying to enter a polarized debate. I think we need to be very clear. We have to recognize the suffering on both sides.

00:02:57:07 - 00:03:18:00
Tobias Cremer
I also think we need to recognize that Hamas is not only holding 58 Israeli hostages, but that Hamas is holding 2 million Palestinian hostages. That is part of their strategy to use civilians as human shields. I think it's really important for us as friends of Israel, just tell Israel that don't go into that trap. Don't fall into that trap.

00:03:18:04 - 00:03:37:00
Tobias Cremer
Live up to your own standards. Live up to international law. That is what makes a democracy strong. And what we see in Israel is that the Israeli population and the Israeli opposition and the Israeli justice system are also very clear that we can't allow Netanyahu and some far right elements to take. In some ways, the whole state of Israel hostage.

00:03:37:02 - 00:03:59:16
Christine Mhundwa
As you highlight. You are a German MEP. Are talking about traps here. There are some who have suggested even voices in israel that Germany itself is falling into a particular trap. The trap that says any condemnation of Israel is somehow viewed as Germany with its historical position being anti-Israel.

00:03:59:18 - 00:04:24:00
Tobias Cremer
We are, I think, what for me, the distinction is very important, especially in a democracy, between a government of a state and then a group of people. The problem that I often have is that in the debates we have also in my own country, a lot of people are equating Netanyahu's government with the state of Israel and sometimes even with any Jew in Germany.

00:04:24:00 - 00:04:53:01
Tobias Cremer
And this is where I think it gets problematic, because then you have the real risk of anti-Semitism. What we want is to get out of this polarized debate and be able to say of course, we are allies of Israel. We stand in solidarity with Israel, with our own history as Germany. But because we are friends of Israel, we can criticize Netanyahu and his government and we stand with our Israeli friends, also the opposition and the majority of the Israeli people who want a de-escalation of this conflict.

00:04:53:02 - 00:05:06:22
Tobias Cremer
We are clear. We want a two state solution, and we know that the fastest way to get there is an immediate, unconditional release of the hostages on the one hand. And for Israel to live up to its own standards and actually enter into negotiations and have an immediate cease fire.

00:05:07:02 - 00:05:20:00
Christine Mhundwa
The Swedish foreign minister, for example, proposed sanctioning individual ministers in the Israeli cabinet. You've talked about some of those ministers. Why won't Germany support that?

00:05:20:02 - 00:05:48:21
Tobias Cremer
Because I think if you have to work and talk to these people, it doesn't make you basically closed down communication channels. What Germany is supporting is, for instance, the sanctioning of of settlers who have committed crimes. But if you want to I'm a trained diplomat. I have to talk with people who strongly disagree with me. And I think if we want to actually make a difference in the life of of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, it won't.

00:05:48:21 - 00:06:04:10
Tobias Cremer
But it won't happen by just being high and mighty on our moral horse. Just saying we don't talk to anybody in the Israeli government. And it will only be able to do that if we go and talk to them. And that does happen by sanctioning members of government. That closes down communication channels rather than opening up.

00:06:04:12 - 00:06:25:08
Christine Mhundwa
But how do you show a friend, Israel, that you've gone too far? And as friends, we have to take action because we're watching the suffering of millions of people in the Gaza Strip. How does Europe do that to stop a friend going too far if that friend hasn't gone too far?

00:06:25:10 - 00:06:44:22
Tobias Cremer
I mean, this is this is the discussions we have with our Israeli friends. And we are very clear and open about that. Our president has been in Israel and he has been also cherishing really the incredible gift that we had and the possibility that after our history, Germany and Israel, our close friends, and that because precisely of that, we can talk frankly to each other.

00:06:44:24 - 00:07:07:09
Tobias Cremer
And, for instance, our president has said very clearly we want the resumption and the opening of channels immediately and had to put pressure on that because we said it as a threat. And actually, there has been some result, there has been some easing of these channels. And I think this is the only way to really change. I want to make the life of the people in Palestine and Israel, in the Gaza Strip and in Israel better.

00:07:07:11 - 00:07:23:07
Tobias Cremer
I don't do that by saying like great moralistic things. I do that by really trying to have an impact. When I talk to Israeli colleagues as the as the front and say, like it is also in your own interest is your population that wants peace. So listen to your own population.

00:07:23:11 - 00:07:44:07
Christine Mhundwa
My final question. There are credible reports of the United States that the Trump administration is in talks with officials in Libya to resettle Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip, in Libya. If this materializes, somehow, how would or how should Europe be responding to something like this?

00:07:44:09 - 00:08:03:11
Tobias Cremer
I mean, these are hypotheticals that I had not heard about before. As I said, we are clear that we want a two state solution, and that means no occupation of the Gaza Strip by Israel and no displacements of people, No, no forced displacement. And we are clear, we've always been clear about that. And I'm very confident we continue to be very clear about that.